Curse

upier · May 23, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I very much disagree with this. A human MM is, at least, very competitive with AP/MoP, if not significantly outdamaging it.

Don't let that burst of yellow numbers when a MoP bomb goes off confuse you. MoP pumps out a ton of damage.....sometimes, and always in bursts. If enemies don't clump up, or if they flee from the AoE, etc... Then AP/MoP goes back to outputting as much damage as Lina.

I think you guys have some misconception that that burst of yellow numbers is CONSTANTLY occurring. It's not. The advantage of AP/MoP is that it can output a large amount of damage in a focused, targeted manner. That's a great advantage, and not to be forgotten.

A human MM though, is pumping out ~160 DPS (sometimes much more) CONSTANTLY, independent of the number of enemies you are facing....for the entire duration of the battle. Versus 10 enemies, 160 DPS. Versus 1 ennemy, 160 DPS.

Remember, your attention is often focused on the enemy that YOU find to be a threat. While you are looking around, evaluating, etc, minions are racking up yellow numbers all over the place....in the corner of the screen, behind you, out of sight to the left/right. What minions DON'T do is give you a burst of numbers at the very place your attention is focused.

AP/MoP does.

It's called perceptual bias.

That's going to be your best case scenario. There is no constant 160-ish DPS when the minions are getting trashed (and if they are not - that means your party is taking damage which means they are there exclusively for damage!), wandering around uninterested in the battle, ...

What also needs to be considered is what such a necro does for the party.
You're probably going to end up running something like:
Fiends - Horrors - Ebon - Order - Maso - BotM and even with the unlimited energy from SR you might need more e-management. And either the monk or you need to take care of the constant healing. But while Ebon is a nice party addition, you are still using your whole bar to achieve that damage. And then, a simple Aegis cuts your damage in half. It's like running a spirit spammer. Sure the damage is going to be there, but that's a whole bar you wasted for doing that.
Now imagine a buffed up physical. Throw Splinter, SoH, Order, Ebon on a MB assassin. We've achieved a similar DPS - yet we still have a lot of room for utility.

So I still stand by my view that for a physical team - I wouldn't bother with them. But for a caster team - you want them primarily as a wall. So any kind of damage that they do is mostly going to be a bonus. But then again - it also depends what kind of a caster team you are running. If you are going to spike down everything in seconds - you don't even need a wall.

Of course this would mean that minions do their job nicely in slow killing caster teams. The problem of course is that pretty much everyone in GW is running this (since we are mostly running h/h - this is what you are stuck with). So I can definitely understand why minions rate so highly.

Moloch Vein · May 23, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Spikes are no better than spread-out damage in PvE. Otherwise you could make an argument than SS, MoP, and all AoE spells are 'spread out' and thus are not as useful. The fact is, it doesn't matter where the damage goes, it's all the same in PvE.

This is very, very wrong. In fact, failure to concentrate damage correctly is one of the major reasons you wipe.

Xenomortis · May 23, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Spikes are no better than spread-out damage in PvE. Otherwise you could make an argument than SS, MoP, and all AoE spells are 'spread out' and thus are not as useful.

No. If you spike a small (sometimes large) group of targets with very high damage (eg: Mark of Pain), that group is very likely to die quite quickly and once they have, they're not a threat.

While the total damage from an OoU MM may be higher than that of MoP, it is spread out over every minion's target and is not concentrated where you want it. Their damage is much less likely to kill anything (though it does happen). Any enemies under attack from minions will therefore remain a threat for much longer. This doesn't make it useless, it distracts enemy healers (making enemies much easier to spike) and the minions are attractive squishies (meaning you take less damage).

Consider this hasty analogy:
4 people, 2 on Team A and 2 on Team B.
Each person has a gun identical to the gun the other people have.
It takes two shots to kill a person.

Team A and Team B both fire their guns at the same rate and at the same time. The one difference is that the people in Team A both pick different targets, whereas those on Team B co-ordinate and pick the same target.

First shot:
Both members of Team B are shot once, both have 50% of their healthremaining.
One member of Team A is shot twice, he is now dead and cannot fire his weapon. The remaining member is still at full health.

Second shot:
One member of Team B is now dead. It is unknown if he managed to fire his weapon, but that is immaterial. The remaining member is still at 50%.
The last member of Team A is dead. Team A have now wiped and Team B are the victors.

By coordinating damage, Team B defeated Team A (who didn't and spread their damage about). Obviously this is a very simple analogy, but I hope it helped.

gerlin · May 23, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Obviously this is a very simple analogy, but I hope it helped.

This analogy is partly wrong. It does in fact matter that at the second shot both if players of Team B fire or not.

If at the second shot a player from team A shoots the player from Team B before 1 of them shoots, the match can still go either way. This way you state they don't shoot at the same time thus there is a chance for win or loss for both teams.
You can drive this further and say that the player from Team A was shot before he could shot at the first shot and result in 100% chance of victory for Team B. This way you can still make your point because then Team B will statistically still have won most match thus proving Team B's tactics are still superior.

If they do shoot at the same time the match is over at the second shot because Team B still does 100% damage with 100% health and Team A only 50% damage with 100% health.

On topic again: Its obvious that spread your damage will only result in failure. Even the AI sometimes focuses damage on 1 character , mainly healers, when they die you lose healing and you have 1 less person that can receive damage; this damage being redirected to another player and so on until you wipe. The less people there are the more damage is focused. That's why MM are so effective in PvE because they soak up damage that would at other times be directed to you.

Xenomortis · May 23, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerlin

This analogy is partly wrong. It does in fact matter that at the second shot both players of Team B fire or not.

Since you stated that they each fire at the same time both players do shoot. Thus making you're analogy correct.
But if only 1 player of Team B can shoot you're analogy is wrong because then there is a 50% chance that Team B will still lose because you consider the fact that they don't shoot at the same time and it is randomly picked who shoots first. On your third shot both players have 50% health so when both fire at the same time again both die resulting in a tie.

Oops, my mistake. It is important that everyone fires at the exact same time.

However, if they do not (and this would apply to the first shot too), then Team B will still win 87.5% of the time.

Anyway, dispensing with the crap analogy:
Disorganised spreading of damage is far from optimal. A MM's primary use is seldom damage, but it is a very nice by-product.

AtomicMew · May 23, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

IMO: Always bring a MM, except for the obvious cases where it's impossible or whatever.

Also, IMO: MM's are better off as heroes bc of death nova.

MM's are both offensive and defensive. Even with SY! available, it's still better that the minions absorb the hexes/conditions/armor ignoring dmg etc.

Offensively, a MM will output more damage than any single physical. With constant death nova or barbs/MoP, it's even more insane.

Gigashadow · May 23, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

This is a good discussion, and like the OP I am constantly reevaluating whether I could be getting more out of my hero setup. I've been using some incarnation of a MM ever since heroes first came out, and I'm sure people by now are very used to and comfortable with what their MM can do - but maybe we can do better?

I love my minion bomber, but at its core it is really just two (big) money skills: Animate Bone Minions + Death Nova. Everything else on that bar is just icing on the cake; putrid bile, foul feast, infuse condition, SoLS, dwayna's sorrow, empathic removal, or whatever other flavor you like add to the bar. All those other skills to fill out the bar are nice, but other heroes have options that are just as nice.

The MM will spend most of its time casting death nova, which is generally ok, because death nova is so amazingly good when it goes off, but it's worth wondering whether another support hero would benefit the party more overall.

If you are running minions, you probably also have a curse necro with barbs, because they synergize so well. And of course, just as the MM spends most of his time casting death nova, the curse necro spends a lot of his time casting barbs on everything.

I'm thinking an interesting alternative to experiment with would be paragon heroes built around a physical team (assuming you also play a physical yourself). Enfeebling Blood is interesting in that it costs only 1e, so even a paragon could use it.

Another alternative is, can you come up with another minion bomber build that has just those two money skills, and has more interesting functionality than the standard bar? Possibly on a different primary; at least with a minion bomber (as opposed to a full minion master) you don't care quite as much if you can only get up to 12 death magic.

upier · May 23, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I'm thinking an interesting alternative to experiment with would be paragon heroes built around a physical team (assuming you also play a physical yourself). Enfeebling Blood is interesting in that it costs only 1e, so even a paragon could use it.

Yeah that was the thing that made me rethink minions.
I've been playing Nightfall HM on my para, using physical heroes (and I think Gwen as a inspiration/curser - or was it orders on the necro?), Mhenlo, Devona, the para hero and the mesmer hero and one monk (and the moti-hench) was able to negate the damage - and all that without a wall. (Although we were using Anthem Of Weariness instead of EB.)

Gigashadow · May 24, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah that was the thing that made me rethink minions.
I've been playing Nightfall HM on my para, using physical heroes (and I think Gwen as a inspiration/curser - or was it orders on the necro?), Mhenlo, Devona, the para hero and the mesmer hero and one monk (and the moti-hench) was able to negate the damage - and all that without a wall. (Although we were using Anthem Of Weariness instead of EB.)

One limiting factor I have on my hero setups is that I want a user controllable Protective Spirit, and Splinter Weapon somewhere. Having Shield of Absorption and Aegis is a plus. That does make it hard to go crazy on the paragons.

I'm also more a fan of the paragon shouts than their spear skills, which I consider to be mediocre, which is why I came up with a non-attacking P/Rt splinter weapon paragon which actually worked out ok.

maxxfury · May 24, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

My main issue with having a shitload of minions is:

Clicking people who needs prots ect in the field and accidentally taggin a minion :P

Screen gets all full and messy

Was much worse back with no minion limit

Ratson Itamar · May 24, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Don't you have your teammates binded to your keyboard? Especially since you have been monking for so long.

maxxfury · May 25, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

Don't you have your teammates binded to your keyboard? Especially since you have been monking for so long.

yup, i do. but clicking in the field is often much more intuitive. And easier to follow the flow. Also mission npc's ect dont have a keyboard bind

also only 1-8

didnt bother to bind 9-12 :P

Gigashadow · May 25, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Upier, check out the N/Mo smiting minion bomber build I posted in the Heroes forum. It keeps the important two minion bombing skills and adds some good damage/support. I was playing around with it and it's working out great. If you want to run more than just yourself as a physical, you can probably have that hero maintain Strength of Honor on 2 party members if you add one more energy management skill to the bar.

Grim Lich · May 25, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I wonder if this has been mentioned but MoP + Bone fiends? Was that ever an option? Yes they don't always attack who you want them too, but if you know how to get them in the right position they often times work with you. Add OoU and Ebon, you got then doing a lot more damage. If you really like your fiends, add ursan for the shout.

MercenaryKnight · Sep 28, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

The fact is you can't exchange a hero mm/mb build with a tank build that works. Minions not only absorb damage (which some will argue it'll be aoe damage so it won't "prevent any") they also absorb spells. If there was a viable hero alternative, then it would have been mentioned and been up there next to a minion build for survivability support.

Again, minions are good for "squishies" especially if theres no save yourselves spammer. If almost all your offense is physicals then minions aren't needed generally and most likely will run an orders of some sort.

Being able to get hit by other random spells thus takes away more overall damage to you.

Also, spiking is important. If you were to aoe a mob so they all died at the same time. Their damage output is always 100% until the second they die. If you kill one, it's dead and new damage output is 0% (well unless you are still in aoe or degen or what have you from what it casted before).

But yeah, spiking reduces the damage you take throughout the battle. Even if it is an aoe spike or something similar, it's still a spike. That is why imo discord beats sabway. Yes you can use ss and do damage over time and kill some of them together. But until they die they can still do all the damage in the world.

Calista Blackblood · Sep 28, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Last post:May 25, 2009, 11:39 PM

/sigh